Locomotive Color Schemes of the Maine 2-footers.
| Page 4.
And here follows all the research and email and internet forum conversations that led to the gathering of the historic color data, that in turn led to my color renditions on page 1. THANK YOU to everyone who helped me find
and gather this information! the story so far.................
I'm working on an On2 scale Model
of Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes Number
9, and I would like to build her in the "as
built" configuration. Black & White
photography was well established by 1909..but COLOR
photography was not! What color was No. 9 when she
was built? When I started this webpage in October
of 2007, that information was simply not known by
the two-footer community. The color schemes of Maine 2-footer rolling stock has been quite well known for a long time, probably because a fair amount of it has survived to this day! Most freight rolling stock was red, most passenger cars were green, some boxcars were grey, etc. Its all quite well documented, and the different practices of the different railroads are quite well understood. (check the On2 faq and this color schemes page for more of this information.) One area that has NOT been well
documented at all is the original color schemes of
Maine 2-footer locomotives! I hope to remedy that
with this webpage! The question of locomotive
colors comes up fairly often on the various Maine
2-foot related forums..In October 2007 the
question of Locomotive colors came up yet again on
the Maine On2 forum. The only data the entire
on-line Maine 2-footer community had at the time
was: "We have documentation that a few early
locomotives were green" thats it?!
thats all the data we have? Based on what is already known about late 19th century locomotive paintschemes, (namely, that they were seldom basic black! ;) it seems logical that the Maine 2-footers of the 1870's - 1900 or so should have been plenty colorful as well! I have always been surprised that there is so little known about early 2-footer locomotive colors, but to be fair, we are at a great disadvantage! because the 2-footers disappeared before the widespread use of color photography. I believe the only color photos EVER taken of any 2-footer in operation were the very late operations of the Bridgton & Harrison in the 1940's..and even those color photos were taken WAY beyond the era when the locomotives would have been wearing their original paintschemes! Every photo of the SR&RL (and
predecessors), KCRR, WW&F, B&SR and Monson
taken while the railroads existed are all in black
& white..every one!
So! a Quest began! So I started digging..conversations on a few different modeling forums led to new leads, which I followed.. Im going to record for posterity the on-line conversations about gathering this color data, this also includes conversations about the use of Russia Iron on 2-footer locomotive boilers. Here follows most of the internet forum conversations..these forum posts already exist on the internet in their original forum locations.
The post that started it all: Posted on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MaineOn2 Message #6982 of 7047
Hi Everybody I've picked up a Bachmann forney and Banta Curly Roof Cab to use in backdating it. I'd like some advice on paint, please. When they were new, were there any particular colors associated with these engines? I assume that they probably had Russia Iron boiler jackets, but was black already the standard color for cabs and tanks or was that a later cost-saving choice? I know Baldwin favored a very dark green at the turn of the century and that Porter also used dark green fairly often, but I'm unfamiliar with other manufacturer's preferences. I'm freelancing, so I'm not worried about getting the particular color of a particular real-life engine right, I'd just like to represent a plausible reality. Thanks,
Craig There is a recap of previous discussions http://members.shaw.ca/twofooter/Maine2ftFAQ-equipLoco.htm#loco%20Painting Because there are multiple links to other webpages, easier to read from the web Regards Bill
As the On2 FAQ states, there is only written evidence for green cabs and tanks on two locos, KCRR #1 and P&R #3. But I believe there were several more with Green coloring, especially passenger engines. (Color to match the coaches) The builders photo of SR&RL #9 shows an obvious difference in tone on the domes between the stripes and the rest of the domes..its darker. and the tone of the cab and tank doesnt quite match other areas that would obviously be black..of course, the builders photo is B&W, but based on those differences in tone, IMO its very possible that #9 had a green cab and tank when new..unfortunately we will probably never know for certain.. As for Russian Iron boilers, its very very obvious from many photos that many 2-foot locos had Russian Iron boilers..IMO, there is absolutely no doubt about this. the photos are very clear. The builders photo of SR&RL #9 for example is 100% clear that it has a Russian Iron boiler..Contrary to popular myth, Russian Iron was not the slightest bit Blue..there has been an ongoing debate on mylargescale.com for many years now, concerning the Mason Bogie project over there, that has proved this beyond any doubt. Russian Iron was a neutral, shiny steel grey. the misconception of it being blue probably came from the metal reflecting a blue sky, making it appear blue. For years, model train manufacturers have got it painfully wrong! here is the worst example I have ever seen: http://www.mth-railking.com/detail.asp?item=30-1368-1 that is a light pastel baby blue! not even remotely close! :( absolutely terrible.. Russian Iron should look more like this: http://www.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=45604 I was just looking through "Two Feet to
Togus" the other night, and its obvious KCRR #2
also had a Russian Iron boiler. actually, they
pretty much all did originally. Even SR&RL
#23, one of the last, shows it clearly. (note!
I was wrong about Russia Iron on #23..see
below.) Russian Iron boilers are very obvious
from B&W photos..unfortunately other colors,
much less so. Its unfortunate none of this color
data has survived! I just wish a newspaper reporter would have written "The shiny new passenger engine, resplendant in its green cab and gold stripes, hauled its first train to Rangeley this morning.." How come no one ever wrote things like that? :( Scot
Hope I'm not being too picky here, but the scrolled-roof ("curly") cab is indicative of two particular builders, not an era. All Maine narrow gauge Hinkleys and, if memory serves, all but one Portland-built engine (B&SR #5) had the scrolled roof, at least as-delivered, while no Baldwins ever did regardless of era. The Bachmann engines are modeled after Baldwins. Darryl Sleszynski
(a "quick" diversion about Russia Iron) The use of Russia Iron on 2-footer
boilers is a seperate but related topic..Its clear
from the Baldwin builder's photo of #9 that she
had a Russia Iron (or "Planished iron" or
"American iron" boiler) http://www.mylargescale.com/articles/masterclass/ http://www.ironhorse129.com/Prototype/MasonBogie/Mason_Bogie.htm http://www.frontiernet.net/~scottychaos/ON_LINE/
Posted on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MaineOn2 The use of Russia iron for boiler
jacketing ended around 1900. Many factors
contributed to the change including better
American iron and heat resistant
Ray
'Doh! I must have been thinking about the BR&P 2-8-0 I also want to build.. But I am absolutely certain that #9 was built with a Russian Iron (or Planished iron) boiler..I have a crisp high resolution builder's photo of #9 in front of me as I type this...there can be no doubt, photos dont lie. Its nice and shiny and clearly not black paint. The difference between "Russian Iron" and "Planished iron" is not clear..some use the terms interchangeably to describe the same process, others say the two processes were slightly different, and Russian Iron is not exactly the same thing as Planished Iron. Whichever process it was, it was still being used by Baldwin in 1909, because #9 had it. From a modeling perspective, that particular debate is irrelevant, because the end result looks pretty much the same, and can be modeled the same way. maybe we need a different term for describing the boilers on the 2-footers, because its probably impossible to determine which process was used..the look is the same, and is easy to tell from a black painted boiler.. maybe I will go with "Russian Iron or Plannished iron" boiler. If you are going to try to model this look, it doesnt matter much which it was, the look is nearly the same. I will go through all my books tonight and put together a list of obvious Russian Iron on 2-footers..many engines that might have been built with R.I. would have been painted black later..or received new boilers later in their careers, (such as the engines rebuilt for SR&RL by the Maine Central) which were obviously painted black..so the same engine could have a R.I boiler or a Black painted boiler, depending on the era. Here are a few interesting links on the topic: http://www.railwayeng.com/dspp/russiron.htm http://www.pa-roots.com/~armstrong/beersproject/history/chap14.html http://www.mylargescale.com/articles/masterclass/mc2/mc2-03/mc2-03-36.asp http://www.mylargescale.com/articles/masterclass/mc2/mc2-03/patina1.asp Kevin says: stay tuned...I have been wanting to put
together a webpage on this topic! as it relates to
the 2-footers..this is a good opportunity to get
started on it! Scot
Gentlemen, > The use of Russia iron for boiler jacketing ended around 1900. > I've heard the "1900" time frame mentioned a lot, and from some extremely knowledgeable men, but after poking though the Baldwin records at the eGolyer Library in Dallas I'd have to respectfully disagree. For example, from the Baldwin spec sheet for Death Valley Railroad #1, builder's number 41473, dated April 30, 1914: Boiler Jacket: #22 Russia Iron
I'll readily admit this locomotive was 3' gauge West Coast engine instead of 2' gauge Maine engine. I'll also admit that I haven't researched that many locomotives at the DeGolyer so I don't know if this was a standard scheme for 1914 or a special order. However, it does prove Baldwin turned out at least one green locomotive with Russian Iron boiler cladding as late as 1914. Cheers,
And how would someone who has seen these color images describe Russia iron? Light blue or gray? Tony Koester
"Light steel metallic grey, somewhat
reflective" no blue. IMO, these are some of the best examples of what it looks like, the first photos of the Heisler. http://archive.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=45604 that model was photographed indoors, under controlled light. its hard to get a realistic depiction outdoors, because the boiler reflects a blue sky! leading to they myth that "Russia Iron is Blue"..it isnt..notice the same model photographed outdoors..the boiler looks a bit blue! ;) Just like water isnt really blue, its totally colorless, but lakes and the ocean sure look blue a lot! ;) Here are some good photos of a real locos: http://members.fortunecity.com/gknowles/articles/ep_pix5.jpg again it looks a little blue..anything neutral and reflective will naturally reflect the color around it..if the sky was always red, we would believe today russia iron naturally had a slight red tint to it..but its neutral. this one is obviously paint, but it
looks like they tried to replicate the look of
Russia Iron, with good results IMO:
Some more great examples! The two
reproduction 4-4-0's at Promontory were very
carefully researched as to correct color..they
really got it right! http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/up119.jpg
Scot
More on
Russia Iron, posted on: http://www.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48990
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : The debate shall never die! Im having a discussion over on the On2 forum about Maine 2-footers and Russia Iron boilers. (I just read a few on-line references that claim all the historic literature from the 19th century always says "Russia Iron", not "Russian Iron"...it seems perhaps the term "Russian Iron" is a modern misconception that has become accepted practice, but technically incorrect?) anyway, most people claim Russia Iron
was no longer used by 1900. ok, thats fine, I can
accept that. Kevin Strong's boiler patina article: http://www.mylargescale.com/articles/masterclass/mc2/mc2-03/patina1.asp mentions "Planished Iron" as a similar looking process to Russia Iron. I can buy that too.. Most sources say Russia Iron died out due to the cost..it was more cost effective to just paint a boiler black..and the era of colorful locomotives was dead by 1900 as well, so Russia Iron boilers died along with the rest of the color, and everything became black.. So Russia Iron and colorful locomotives for the most part didnt make it to the 20th century, and boilers started being painted black before or around 1900...still no problem. So then can anyone explain why the book "Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburg Railway" by Paul Pietrk shows very clear and crisp builder photos of gorgeous Alco-Brooks locomotives such as: 2-8-0 built in 1904.
that ALL very very clearly and obviously have the distinct "Russia Iron Look" to their boilers?? sniny steel metal! very clearly NOT black paint! If its not actual Russia Iron in 1918, which it apparently cant be, then what is it? I assume it must be this "planished iron"..but if cost was a factor, why were locos still getting this treatment into the 1920's? Does anyone have a definitive date for
the last of real Russia Iron?
thanks,
Its a technicallity Scot,
(David Fletcher)
Long live the debate! Miscellaneous thoughts -- 1. Any metal can be planished, not just iron. I have seen references to planished aluminum, brass, copper, gold silver and steel. To planish means to toughen or polish by hammering lightly. 2. I'm not sure either term "Russia iron" or "Russian iron" is necessarily "correct." My 1888 Car Builder's Dictionary defines the term "Russia iron." But an article from the Dec. 1, 1888 Engineering and Mining Journal cited together with comments by Kyle Wyatt of the Nevada State Railway Museum refers to "Russian iron." [By the way, I highly recommend this article.] 3. The 1888 Car Builder's Dictionary says Russia [sic] Iron is "a form of sheet iron manufactured in Russia the exact process for making which has heretofore been kept secret, but which consists essentially in forming a chemical compound of iron upon its surface at the same time that it is highly polished, so that it is not likely to rust. Modern substitutes for this iron are also known as planished iron." Its definition of planished iron is "One of the attempted substitutes for Russia [sic] iron. One of many processes consists of the formation of an oxidized surface on each sheet over and above the surface secured in ordinary working. The oxidized surface is then reconverted into metallic iron, which will enter readily into combination with an oxidizing agent applied throughout. The surface thus given to the sheet is fixed by planishing or hammering until the desired polish is secured. The recent imitations of Russia iron have been very successful, but nothing yet made outside of Russia is quite as good as the original." Neither term is defined in the 1879 edition, most likely because Russia iron was not yet used in railway cars (it had been in use otherwise well before 1879). By 1888, it was not only being used in railway cars, but alternatives were being sought. Since the CBD reflected past practices, a planished iron substitute for Russia iron must have been sought sometime before 1888. (It would be interesting to know if the definition appeared in the 1884 CBD, the only edition between 1879 and 1888.) 4. Timber Times issue no. 18 reportedly contains an article titled "Russia Iron/Planished Iron The inside story of this mysterious metal." (Hayes Hendricks)
Good work, Hayes. I would add that the definition for Russia Iron is exactly the same in the 1906 CBD, which doesn't prove that it was still being actively used, but certainly that it was still considered useful information. It also refers the reader to the definition of planished iron. (Vance Bass)
Looking at photos in Norwegian sources,
it seems that even into the 1930s, Norwegian loco
builders used boiler cladding made from "blue
oxidized sheet steel" (translated literally from a
Norwegian photo caption). In BW photos this looks
just like the Russia Iron that was used here, and
in the US, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries. The following page links to two
articles from "Manufacturer and Builder" from 1870
and 1872, they are a little way down the page: http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/moa/browse.author/m.37.html
Interesting to note that in the two
articles identified by Andre, one refers to
"Russia" sheet-iron and the other to "Russian"
sheet-iron.
I've seen the same sheet boiler cladding
on Swedish locos and Swiss as well. I had the
pleasure of driving the Rigi steam 1920s rack loco
around the yard in 2005, and fully restored she
also has a planished iron boiler jacket today!
Nice!
I think (my opinion only) that trying to affix a hard date to things like this where more than one manufacturer was producing a similar "feature" is totally insane. Workign in a few different industries now in engineering I realize that even long dead products can get resurrected from time to time. Sometimes with original tooling and finishes and somethimes with something approximating the original if processes no longer exist. If the customer wants it then the manufaturers will provide it. I would surmise this may have been the case with these finishes. You truly want to know? Try searhcing jsut for the Russia Iron manufacturer. Find the manufacturing records and when they started and finished producing teh amterial with teh finish in question. Then track down the rest of the companies that made an approximation (planished) of the material and finish and see when they stopped offering it in catalogs. that will give you a good indication of about when they stopped making it. It doesn't mean they stopped completely but it means the decided to not pursue it anymore and anything after that was from old stock or a custom order both of which could have later dates. Anyhow the above is jsut my thoughts on this and in no way are researched or supported by actual facts from this particular debate or any of the articles or authors of such articles. Chas Ronolder
Ok then! Boiler Jacket: #22 Russia Iron
(those specs are from Death Valley Railroad #1, Baldwin builder's number 41473, dated April 30, 1914) And the Alco/Brooks works was still
clearly building locomtives with "the Russia Iron
look" as late as 1918. (from BR&P Railroad
builders photos in a book I have.)
I put together a chart of Maine 2-footer locomotives that clearly show Russia-American-Planished Iron when built. That feature is easy to identify from B&W photos.
Getting back to COLOR, So far, (October 2007) we have actual historic color data for only three Maine 2-footer engines: KCRR #1 - Baldwin 1890 - Baldwin Specs - Olive Green with Aluminum Leaf lettering. Full spec sheet printed in the book "Two feet to Togus" KCRR #2 - Portland 1890 - the
book "Two feet to Togus" says #2 was also green.
P&R #3 - Baldwin 1891 - Baldwin
Specs - Olive Green with Aluminum Leaf lettering.
Thats it?? only three locos out of the
entire 40-unit Maine 2-footer locomotive fleet? There must be more information
out there somewhere! I have a nice crisp Baldwin builders
photo of SR&RL #9, the photo naturally
is Black & White..as are all photos
from that era. But I want to build a model of No.
9.. a model needs to painted..I need to
choose a color of paint to use..but what color?? black? green? blue? no one knows! I suspect she was probably green, because #9 was designed, ordered, built and used primarily as a passenger engine, so I think its very likely #9 had a green cab and tank to match the color of passenger cars, just like Kennebec Central #1 and #2..but there is no factual data to back up my theory. Or is there??? Perhaps the data exists,
hidden away somewhere, but no one is really aware
of it yet?
Charlie Siebenthal said:
oooh! thanks Charlie! this could be very
useful!
From: scot.lawrence@...
Sent: Mon 10/8/2007 9:09 AM
Hello California State Railroad Museum Library, I have a question concerning Baldwin
locomotive paint schemes and one specific
locomotive. All Baldwin manufactured locomotives
were listed in their specification book.
If such a thing exists, I would love to
find the colorscheme for Sandy River &
Rangeley Lakes Railroad Locomotive #9.
The locomotive was a 2-foot gauge 2-4-4 Forney built by Baldwin in 1909. I tried multiple searches on your on-line search function, but didnt come up with anything. any help would be greatly
appreciated! Scot Lawrence
A very friendly and helpful Kathrin Santos from the museum wrote back and said:
"Rail Road Museum Library"
<RRMUSEUMLIBRARY@...>
Subject RE: Question about Baldwin color plates. Dear Mr. Lawrence, I found the specification sheet for your engine. It says that the painting, engine style is 215 Olive Green and Aluminum. Please send your mailing address and I will send you a copy of the page where I found this information. We have the color slide available for reproduction. The cost is $2.50 + $4.00 postage and handling for a color slide or $ 16.50 for a color scan. If you plan to publish this scan, please contact Stanford University for permission. Our Baldwin specifications and our Baldwin color schemes are not searchable through our online databases. Sincerely, Kathryn Santos Please include your mailing address, telephone number, and the Library's previous e-mail (if applicable). For more information about the Library, visit the "Library & Collections" section of the California State Railroad Museum web page at www.californiastaterailroadmuseum.org. California State Railroad Museum Library
WOW! there it is! **Engine style is 215 Olive Green and Aluminum.** The actual as-built color information
for SR&RL #9! Direct from Baldwin!
success! From: scot.lawrence@....
Kathryn, (removed) And I would like to also order the color
slide! or if those dont work, I will simply
send a check through the mail.
California State Railroad Museum
Library If I wanted to request the same color
information from a few more Baldwin locomotives,
(perhaps 3 to 5 more) thank you!
Now I know the basic color scheme and lettering colors.. but what exactly is "Olive Green"?! I don't know..could be any one of an infinite number of greenish shades. So I posted a question about Baldwin
Olive Green over on MLS, where I suspected the answer could be
found! I have worked with David Fletcher and Jim Wilke a lot over the past few years over on mylargescale.com. with the Mason Bogie Project and other projects. (I did some early color renditions for the bogie project) Fletch is the man when it comes to model building! and he has done lots of work on digging up historic data for the Mason Bogies and other locomotives, and builds amazing models! Jim Wilke is a railroad historian who has done extensive research on 19th century locomotive color schemes. He helped the National Park Service with accurate schemes to repaint their "Golden Spike" replica locomotives at the Golden Spike National Historic Site. He also appeared on a History Channel documentary about the two 1850's era locomotives discovered off the coast of New Jersey. Thanks guys! From mylargescale.com, concerning Baldwin Olive Green:
I found the color specs for an engine im going to model! (in On2 scale) Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes #9, built in 1909. Baldwin specs say "engine style is 215 Olive Green and Aluminum" So what exactly is "Olive Green"? My
idea of "Olive Green" today is possibly not the
same as Digging into our extensive Mason Bogie color database, I think of it as this: http://www.frontiernet.net/~scottychaos/ON_LINE/wilke_NKP.jpg http://www.frontiernet.net/~scottychaos/ON_LINE/wilke_chatam.jpg The color on the tender and cab.
http://www.headlite.com/default/images/headlite_G2_olive_green.jpg http://www.clubvw.org.au/images/toy_dept_46.6.jpg (I understand not everyone has the same color balance on their monitors, so we arent all seeing the same thing! but I think you get the idea.) there is a problem with this color
though.. But rolling stock colors are much better
known.. http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/scottychaos/coach53.jpg a significantly "brighter" green than what I consider "olive green" to be! I believe it is VERY likely that the color on the locomotives would have matched the color on the coaches! I really dont think they would have been two different greens..(although that is possible I suppose! but im going to assume that is not the case, since that assumption is far more likely) (note! I find out later I was wrong
about that! The "Baldwin Olive Green" of the
locmotives is NOT the exact So...anyone have any historic examples of what Baldwin was talking about when they said "Olive Green" in 1909?? thanks,
Hi Scotty, Baldwin green is almost black; BUT in a model it would look to be so if you used that color. A while ago now I asked the same sort of question and the replies pointed to the like of the Tamiya Japanese Army green or such, I will be painting my DSP 2 8 0 in the early and deeper great Western Railway loco green. As you will be well aware color and the tones of it are alaways a bit contentious, not helped by the fact that modern color mixing is totally different from the 1900's, when paint was mixed from pigments /binders/varnishes to the mixers specification, and how good his eyes were! There is an often told tale here in the UK about the mid green used by the LNER at Doncaster Works (so that would be 1923 - 1947) two sets of paint were mixe; one was done in daylight, the other was done at night and they were totally different! Add general pollution and weather and they change again(don't forget that white went brown, and grey could change during the year as it gained (or lost) the lead sulphide in its mix. Your US Olive Drab by the way has too
much earth color in it - no good! Not certain
about Marine Green. Dave Fletcher's D&RG 2 8 0 'Music
Pass' on his site is that sort of color, and he
has done some computer printed sheets with Jim
Wilkie, which show a dull medium dark green; ask
him if it possible to send you a copy if the one
above does not suit. Remember that the screen can
& does lighten things up! Likewise the sheet I
have mentioned is also on white, and surrounded by
white so you can get a wrong perception as a
result. That is not his fault; the eye works on
variables and sometimes gets it wrong, as a camera
too much white bleeds into your color perception.
Have a look at the following = my eyes suggest a color like Hunter green, which MAY have a bit too much blue in it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Shades_of_green
and then click on olive which will give the following page - BUT you must add the green into the color! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_%28color%29 Yours, Peter Bunce
Scot, very close to the dark green on the Penn K4, or Olive Drab on the old coaches. Its very dark, looks black when seen indoors. I sent colour samples to Accucraft for DSP&P 2-8-0 #51 of 1880, which was Style 103, Baldwin Olive Green. They must have been eating those dark olive there in Penn! Jim provided the colour originally.
Olive Green was introduced into the Baldwin colour range in 1877 and remained in use till the end in the 1950s. Drop a note to Jim to ask about the linework decoration Style 215, he'll be able to fill you in, and on the Aluminium linework. David. (David Fletcher)
Scott, Interesting work on your kitbash, I hope someone actually does that. BTW, you wondered about the original olive green, Style 215 paint job on SR&RL No. 9, specifically whether it was intended to match the SR&RL cars. It was not. Baldwin Olive Green is a very dark off-green, which was Baldwin's own "trademark" color. Unless the SR&RL or any other railroad specifically ordered an engine in another color (like black), olive green is what they got. Its a very dark, good looking color. Not as dark as Brunswick green, and not black, but definitely rich and deep. The large scale Bachmann 4-4-0 you referenced has the color exactly right. So your train would have the engine in olive green, and the cars in coach green. The boiler jacket on No. 9 was planished iron, which was standard on new Baldwin engines in the early 1900s. So was the aluminum striping, very common at this time. Cheers, (Jim Wilke)
Jim, thanks!
Scot, No problem, I like what you're doing and it will be neat to see. Olive green was Baldwin's stock catalog
color, so expect to see a lot
There is an exception, Franklin &
Megantic No. 2, which was ordered
Franklin & Megantic 9-1886 8-11 1/3 C No. 2 outside frames Black and gold, Style 146 "Letters & numbers in graceful gilt letters" Planished jacket with brass bands
It was a neat little engine, like all of the two footers. Jim (Jim Wilke)
If you are considering using a rattle can, DO NOT Use Krylon's olive green in their satin series. I painted a couple of Bachmann On30 boxcars with it and it was terrible to use. Goes on thick filling in details, doesn't cover well, and is very prone to running. Paul Norton
Paul Do you find you have trouble with all Krylon paints or just their satin series paints? Robert
Scott and all, How does the new Bachmann 4-4-0 Olive and Russia Iron scheme look from the few pictures that have shown up online? Accurate or not, I like the look of that engine, and have been extremely tempted... Mark Millersvillanova Rail Road
The new dark green Bachmann 4-4-0 is spot on for Baldwin Olive Green, with proper 1877 'Style 49' decoration from Baldwin. This model and the Lake version were developed for Bachmann with the help of RR Historians. David. (David Fletcher)
I usually have good success with Krylon paints, but the Satin, Olive Green was terrible to use. I have used the Satin Clear and was pleased with it. I switched to Krylon Camouflage, Drab
Olive for my ON30 boxcars. It goes on great,
covers well and dries quickly. Because of its very
flat finish, it makes the wooden boxcars looks
older and more prototypical.
Paul Norton
David, Excellent! I am glad to see this reissue with the large stack, and not their 'straight stack', which I would have called a diamond stack.. but then, I am not all the knowledgeable of those specifics. Mark Millersvillanova Rail Road
Thanks for the help everyone!
Here is the new Bachman pic: http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/gallery/1_20_3_American/aab?full=1 the green looks totally black on my
monitor.. Scot (Scot Lawrence)
Scott, It looks a lot blue-er than the previous 4-4-0 boiler, say on the D&RGW version. Still, I think it is a sharp looking paint job that will allow us all to add whatever roadname we want. I was thinking that if and when I added this loco to my roster, that I'd have to get some specially made up lettering to go along with the general timeframe of the loco. You know, like with shadowing,etc.. This and the Lake color scheme appealed to MB. She liked how the engine was not just another black steam locomotive. Mark Millersvillanova Rail Road
Thanks guys! Based on that information, I created a color painting of SR&RL #9, digitally painting the colors on the builder's photo using photoshop.. First I painted this version:
then emailed it back to Jim and Fletch for advice on "how well I got it".. I have been conditioned to think of
certain things as "givens" or "standard"..
Boy was I wrong!
Hey Scot, I'm not sure you need my words in your page, as everything I know on the subject is entirely what Jim has taught me. Jim's words cover what you need. I have no problem with the 2-8-0 being shown if you want to. I have no issue with my words either, but Jim's are from the source! I'm sure Jim will fill you in on the colourized loco. Looks really terrific. Its amazing how an old B&W photo starts to come alive with a splash of colour. The green looks good, I think provides the idea of it being dark, without losing the 'green' on screen. I'd do the domes all in green, no black, but this engine is also from the era of our outside frame 2-6-2Ts in Auz, and I've had a difficult time explaining the style 293 on green to the local crowd, who insist (and they may be right), that the two 2-6-2s were green locos with black domes. I didn't think it was in keeping with Baldwin's methods, but here in Auz, they insist the domes were black all over. While the builder's photos do show the domes as darker than the general bodywork, I think its a trick of the light, and inservice photos, still in original styles, show the domes and body as the same colour. I'll defer that one to Jim. My vote is for all green domes! They have no data to suggest the domes were black other than the builder's photo. From my take, I'd paint the frames, and suspension in green, pilot truck and rear truck frame in green, and wheels in green with polished steel tyres. I'd do the running board edges and tender tank frame edge in polished steel, rather than brass, but I'd like to see what Jim thinks also. The hand rail might have been a polished steel, rather than brass on painted green stanchions. Builder's plate also in green. As the feed water line on the boiler side looks polished, its probably copper, as brass pipe wasn't really used for lines with steam/water pressure in them...the check valves however would be cast brass. Sand lines in painted green as are the other painted pipes on the boiler, such as the blower lines and injector pipes. I dont have an issue with the red oxide roof. Sounds reasonable to me for this era. I'm keen to see what other info Jim might add. Its always most revealing what transpires when colouring locos! Thanks Scot, David. (Fletch)
Scott and David, The engine looks great and your page is sensational! You're doing a great service to all the two foot modelers, and I think its terrific. Here are some answers to the burning questions. First off, I think your olive green is very good - a tad light but this is indeed necessary for clear visuals on computer images. However when we mean "olive green" we mean olive green. Not black with olive green trim. So the domes are entirely olive green, and the frames, wheels and trucks olive green, and so on, even the cylinder saddle. Also the base on the headlight, and handrail stanchions. The metal rod across the pilot beam too, and its supports. The sandpipes and the pipe thing that goes into the smokebox are olive green too. Dont forget the olive green cab steps. Its hard to imagine at first, but you quickly get used to it, and then it becomes entirely right. After all, its what Baldwin did! The only black is the smokebox, stack and firebox. Baldwin cab roofs were a dark brown from about 1883 on, so your cab roof should be dark brown. As you already know, the red was a later repaint put on by the railroad. The brass nosing, piping and trim should be polished iron, a silver grey color. The only brass is the bell and whistle, and builder's and front number plate, along with various cab fittings like the gauges, etc. Of course the builder's plate and front number plate are cast brass, painted olive green with the raised lettering and borders polished to show the bright brass. Can you tone the lettering and striping to look more silver, like aluminum? It looks white now, and that might confuse people. So many folks are at square one with this, and white is such a myth, that a more aluminum look will intuitively show them what these engines really were like. The "Style 215" is extremely important. It denotes the engine's striping pattern, so saying an engine is "olive green with aluminum" is a good start, but we also need the Style pattern, to finish it off. Many authors didnt think to report that part, only the colors (and then it was amazing they even reported that) so its like a car with wheels but no engine. If you can quote the Style number for KCRR 1 and 2 this will really help. I heard somewhere that the Portland spec books are out there, and contain colors. However this was years ago, I lost the note, and the person who forwarded it to me cant remember either. If you could find it I would be totally indebted to you! Here is another two foot spec, for the Franklin & Megantic. Its in black, which is unusual, and clearly a request by the people who ordered the engine from Baldwin. Franklin & Megantic 9-1886
I know that all of the two foot Baldwin engines can be reconstructed in color, should anyone have the interest in assembling the specifications. Perhaps, if we are lucky, the Portland specs might show up, too. I sure hope so. Your planished iron is very nicely done. Can I share this with my friend Jon? He is totally trustworthy and might have some good ideas. He does the computer reconstructions of early engines, and knows the whole olive green bit inside and out. Yes, please feel free to quote me, or say something like JW says the engine was olive green from the factory color, without the intention of matching the cars or something like that. By the way, I bet the car colors changed over the years, just like the engine colors. Cheers, and keep up the good work! Jim (Jim Wilke)
Thanks guys.. wow..thats quite a mindset shift for
me..
Hi Scot, There are two more things to do and you're done. First, add some olive green to the frame around the firebox, under the cab. It got hot, but the frame was still painted. Second, be sure to make the wheels olive green. Flanges polished steel of course. Then you are done, and No. 9 is in her original glory for the first time in 98 years. Good work, and thanks for letting me contribute. Cheers! Jim
And now we have the final version..
(Larger resolution version on page 1.)
Hi Scott and Dave, Thanks for the update, it looks like a lot of good work here. The last time we wrote on this I was looking at the tinting colors and didn't even cross check the striping style on SR&RL 9. Oops - something really important went right past my nose, and we have a big mystery on our hands. We have a mystery, or at least something that needs to be double checked. Its totally weird. Style 215 and Style 291 were both stock Baldwin striping styles, when you got when you had no preference. Style 215 was earlier, and replaced by Style 291 sometime in the early 1900s. They are the same except for the striping on the tender. Style 215 has horizontal stripes at the top and bottom of the tender, very simple. Style 291 has panel stripes, with rounded corners, also simple. Both have stripes outlining the flange on the tender. As you can see in the SR&RL 9 photo, there are Style 291 panel stripes, and the WW&F 7 shows them as well. This would make sense, since 291 had become the "factory style" by the time the engines were built. The photos show both engines as painted in Style 291. So why do they say Style 215 then? Scott, do you have copies of the specs, or just the information? If you have copies, look carefully and see first if they really do say 215, and if they do, look more carefully and see if there is any handwritten note, maybe in pencil that does not show up on a microfilm copy, that changes it to 291. This is weird - but sometimes Baldwin changed specs while an engine was in construction, which sometimes meant that painting and striping was changed too. And I've seen one spec where the base color of the engine was changed, but written in pencil, so its barely visible unless you knew to look. Boy am I glad you wrote, and we gan get this fixed, or even more fun, investigate the mystery. I'll be out of town from Late this week though the next, so please be aware I might not get back right away. The details for the two striping styles are below. As it says, Style 291 was first used on a Chilean State railways engine, but Baldwin adopted it for its house style later on, around 1903-06. Jim Style 215 (developed for stock)
Style 291 (first used for Chilean State
Railways; became stock style)
Jim (Jim Wilke)
There is a question concerning the
Baldwin specification number listed for WW&F
No.7 and SR&RL No. 9..it concerns the tender
striping. The builders photos of No. 7 and No. 9 clearly show them with style 291, "panel stripes with rounded corners" and not style 215, which is two horizontal stripes at the top and bottom of the tender. So their spec. sheets say style 215, but they were actually built with style 291 stripes. Baldwin was replacing style 215 with 291 around the time the locomotives were built, so perhaps the old style remained on the spec sheets, while the new style was actually applied to the locomotives. I have not seen the actual color spec sheets, I only was told (via email) the color specs by the California Railroad Museum, who has the specs in their collection. Perhaps there is a hand-written notation on the sheets denoting the change. Baldwin spec sheets have been known to have hand-written changes superceding the typed specs. If anyone has actual copies of the sheets, that might help to solve this mystery. I havent looked into this tender
striping issue much yet..future research on that
will be ongoing.. Thanks everyone! I ended up buying a total of 4 huge
gorgeous Baldwin Builders photos from the
SR&RL 9 I highly recommed ordering those scans!
As of January, 2008, I now have color
specs for eight locomotives:
F&M 2
Update! I emailed Kathryn at the California
State Railroad Museum again, this time going
all-out, Dear Scot, Here is the color spec information for the Baldwin engines that you requested: 1. Sandy River Railroad # 2, built
1890, Baldwin builder No. 13733 -- engine style is
216 green and gold, finish is 106
2. Sandy River Railroad # 8, built
1904, Baldwin builder No. 23874 -- engine style is
284 black and gold, 3 coats varnish, finish is
158, except rods 3. Sandy River Railroad # 16, built 1907, Baldwin builder No. 31826 -- NOT FOUND 4. Laurel River & Hot
Springs Railroad, (road number?)-- no road number,
locomotive named "James Wyman." built 1892,
builder No. 12964 -- engine style is 216 olive
green, finish is 106 (need actual color for "finish
106" - Scot) If anyone can clarify exactly what
"Cab 12" - "sand box 31", etc. refers to,
please let me know. 5. Eustis Railroad locomotives 7, 8 or 9, builder numbers 23245, 23754, 23755, built 1903 and 1904. -- NOT FOUND 6. Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes number 10 built 1916, builder No. 42231 -- engine style black, no striping, lettering gold leaf 7. Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes number 23 built 1913, builder No. 40733 -- engine style black, no striping, lettering gold leaf, Roman numerals 8. Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes number 24. built 1919, builder No. 51803. -- engine style black, no striping, lettering gold 9. Bridgton & Saco River
number 6. built 1907, -- engine style 215,
olive green and aluminum, finish 160
10. Bridgton & Saco River number 7. built 1913, -- engine style black, no striping, lettering gold leaf 11. Bridgton & Saco River number 8. built 1924, -- NOT FOUND 12. Kennebec Central Railroad
number 1. built 1890, -- engine style 214
The engines that were not found on the Baldwin microfilm may have been originally purchased by another company and then sold to the railroad. (this is not actually the case..all the remining "unknown" Baldwin engines were bought new by the 2-foot railroads - Scot) If you can find the original purchaser, then I may be able to find information about these engines. It is also possible that these engines aren't showing up because they weren't microfilmed. You may want to contact DeGolyer Library about these engines to see if they have the specs for them. Contact Stanford University for the detail finish information. Some engines did not have a style number. Where there was a style number, I included the style number for each component. The numbers in parentheses are the CSRM slide numbers. When ordering, please include both the style number and the CSRM slide number. Sincerely, Kathryn Santos, Please include your mailing address, telephone number, and the Library's previous e-mail (if applicable). For more information about the Library, visit the "Library & Collections" section of the California State Railroad Museum web page at www.californiastaterailroadmuseum.org. California State Railroad Museum Library
thank you again Kathryn!  thats fabulous information! Below is all the color data I have found
as of 2/18/2008. F&M 2 - "Black and Gold,
style 146." KCRR 1 - "Olive Green with aluminum leaf
lettering." KCRR 2 - "Green cab and tank"
SRRR 2 - "Engine style is 216 green and
gold, finish is 106. Cab 12, cylinder 12,
P&R 3 - "Olive
green with aluminum leaf lettering."
SRRR 3:2 - "Engine style is 216 olive
green, finish is 106, Cab 12, cylinder 12,
P&R 2:2 - "Olive green and gold
(trim) with lettering and numbers in
silver." SRRR 8 - "Engine style is 284 black and
gold, 3 coats varnish, finish is 158,
B&SR 6 - "Engine style 215,
olive green and aluminum, finish 160.
WW&F 6 - "Painting Style 291,
Olive Green and Aluminum."
WW&F 7 - "Painting Style 215,
Olive Green and Aluminum." SR&RL 9 - "Engine style is 215
Olive Green and Aluminum." B&SR 7 - "Engine style
black, no striping, lettering gold leaf."
SR&RL 23 - "Engine style
black, no striping, lettering gold leaf, Roman
numerals." SR&RL 10 - "Engine style
black, no striping, lettering gold leaf."
SR&RL 24 - "Engine style
black, no striping, lettering gold."
Notice the distinct color shift between
1909 and 1913. Then, in 1913, we have the beginning of
the Black & Gold era. One unknown question (of many) is "how
long did an individual locomotive STAY
|
It seems most people model
the 2-footers in their later years, 19-teens
through the 1930's, when most locomotives
were plain black..thats all well and good, if
thats the era you would like to model, but I still
want to know what color all these locomotives were
when they were new! That information seemed sadly
lacking. 
